Ultimate matrix question

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Ultimate matrix question

Postby vieome on Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:55 am

Morpheus, " Have you ever had a dream which was so real, what if you were unable to wake from that dream how would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"

You are given the following facts!

matrix=religion
matrix=Christianity
matrix=gnostic
matrix=Plato's cave
matrix=Buddhism
matrix=Hinduism
matrix=life
matrix=etc

Life=religion
Life=Christianity
Life=gnostic
Life=Plato's cave
Life=Buddhism
Life=Hinduism
Life=matrix
Life=etc


The question is how can you prove your world is not the matrix?
What does it mean if you can not prove your world is not the matrix?
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Postby Feral_Boy on Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:42 pm

That's part of the problem of applying the Matrix movies to our own lives. In the movies, the redpill characters KNOW that the Matrix is not the ultimate reality, and they CAN wake up from it. But in our own lives, there's no way to really know whether or not our world is the ultimate reality. We don't get to have any clandestine meetings with Morpheus who can give us a red pill and free us from the chains of this world.

Obviously, the movie is meant to be a vehicle to enable us to think outside the box. It's not necessarily meant to get us to wonder whether we are all inside a computer virtual reality program while our physical bodies are hooked up to huge towers like cattle. Overall, the idea is that you question your world and seek truth in whatever form it may come. Truth for the seeker may be subjective, but even then it's still important for the seeker to seek it.
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Postby CaptPostMod on Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:19 pm

Feral Boy wrote:In the movies, the redpill characters KNOW that the Matrix is not the ultimate reality, and they CAN wake up from it.


Even worse (or better), unlike in the movies “you” can’t get out of “your” reality.
"Some success, some failure, but either way the gnawing hunger to know is never sated, and the road to the unknown continues to be dark and strange." --The Outer Limits episode "Expanding Human"
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Postby Feral_Boy on Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:54 pm

CaptPostMod wrote:
Feral Boy wrote:In the movies, the redpill characters KNOW that the Matrix is not the ultimate reality, and they CAN wake up from it.


Even worse (or better), unlike in the movies “you” can’t get out of “your” reality.

Exactly. As a believer in Yeshua, I believe that one day I will receive a resurrected body that will be vastly superior to the one I have right now. But that's in the future. Right now, I'm still stuck with the same old body, same old limitations and same old world. The only transcendence I can attain right now is in the mind.
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Postby vieome on Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:30 am

Gentleman Gentlemen you have not answered my question.

How can you prove you are not in the matrix?


You are both explaining what the film makers are trying to do which is not the answer to the question I asked.

WHAT I am looking for is evidence that we are not in the matrix. Remember in the matrix universe the film also exist
that is blue pills have watced the film, there are probably also people like us who discuss the matrix. So answer the question if you can!


P>S Feral sorry I know you wait for the arrival of your saviour, but the matrix argument is that Yeshua has been and gone, e arrived as a simulacra.
And he will never arrive in person, because God is in the TV.
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Postby vieome on Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:06 am

I had so hoped for a better response from your intel-ligent minds. Yet I still get the feeling that you all will instead of provide proof you will go on about the film.

So What if the wachows idea was to create a detailed map of our reality, a map that overlaps the terrority of our reality, so that our reality is ultimatly lost and replaced by the simulacra the matrix map.

You talk about only finding the core reality in Zion, but what if the core reality you are looking for is actually the fact that you are in the matrix. To me that is the most radical idea to stem from the films. Wait back up....


PROVE TO ME THAT WE ARE NOT IN THE MATRIX.

THIS IS WHAT THE WACHOWS WERE TRYING TO SHOW WITH THE MATRIX, THAT THE WORLD IS WHAT YOU BELIEF AND THERE IS NO ULTIMATE REALITY, BECAUSE REALITY IS WHAT EVER YOU CHOOSE.

Remember the brain does not know the difference between what it sees and what it remembers. So while you all provide info from your concious expierance of the matrix watching the film, you have to concider what happened to you on a sub concious level with the matrix.
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Postby CaptPostMod on Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:36 pm

vieome wrote:PROVE TO ME THAT WE ARE NOT IN THE MATRIX.


Difficult to prove a negative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

Would you prefer that we prove to you we are?http://www.newworldview.com/library/Wolf_F_A_Mind_into_Matter_Intro.html#111
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Postby vieome on Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:11 pm

So as proof you offer an article by Fred wolf... Very interesting he is also know as Doctor Quantum from What the bleep and The Secret.

Off topic Cpt are you into scientology? hubbard he knew wher the money was at create a religion, but he has nothing on the wachows who created a universe.
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Matrix of Reality

Postby psikeyhackr on Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:08 pm

Matrix=Gnosticism=Life

Buddhism >< Gnosticism

Let's face it, the entire Matrix scenario is contrived.

When Morpheus was captured by agents the way to get him out would be to drug his real body. With morphine for instance. Then unplug him while he was knocked out. When he wakes up he is out of the Matrix.

I think people go too deep on a pseudointellectual trip about the Matrix itself.

I suspected REALITY worked on reincarnation before The Matrix came out.

What is Gnosticism really? Who was Melchizedek and what does he have to do with Enoch?

Why was Neo's second ship named Logos? Does Logos just mean Word?

http://reluctant-messenger.com/aquarian_gospel.htm

If The Matrix gives clues to the weirdness of our REALITY the clues still have to be tracked down without getting fixated on The Matrix.

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Postby iLuvU2 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:26 pm

CaptPostMod wrote:
vieome wrote:PROVE TO ME THAT WE ARE NOT IN THE MATRIX.


Difficult to prove a negative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof


Good one.

CaptPostMod wrote:
Feral Boy wrote:In the movies, the redpill characters KNOW that the Matrix is not the ultimate reality, and they CAN wake up from it.
Even worse (or better), unlike in the movies “you” can’t get out of “your” reality.


Another.

You're starting to post what I'm thinking. Scary.
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Postby CaptPostMod on Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:19 pm

vieome wrote:Off topic Cpt are you into scientology? hubbard he knew wher the money was at create a religion, but he has nothing on the wachows who created a universe.


In ages past, creating universes and things within such universes was just another game for a thetan. He/she liked to show his/her creations to other thetans, and by too close identification with their creations and "helped along" by other thetans, we gradually were reduced to what we now are. In order to have a game, a thetan must forego some of its omnipotence and omniscience. If you know everything beforehand, a game is no fun any more, isn't it?


Hubbard had a lot to say about the creation of universes. I know there’s a good amount about it in Fundamentals of Thought. Interesting stuff.

I never thought to compare Hubbard to the Wachowskis. In terms of creating universes, Hubbard wrote millions of words, dozens of books, and offered hundreds of recorded lectures on the Scientology/Dianetics universe. The Wachowskis volume is much less when it comes to the Matrix-verse (quality versus quantity argument might enter in here).

As for making money, Hubbard may have been purely in it for the cash as detractors say. That quote about founding a religion is hearsay (whether true or not, it’s hearsay). I don’t know his motives for fact, and founding a religion can get people rich, but it just as often gets them hung up from trees to asphyxiate or laughed at as madmen. There are easier ways to make ridiculous amounts of money.

Hubbard portrayed his motives as more altruistic, and perhaps they were.

The Wachowskis, on the other hand, want to make big fat sacks of cash. They’re making entertaining movies. I don’t have time to look up that quote, but there’s even a quote from them saying their motivation in making the films was to make a big wad of cash. That’s what making Hollywood movies is all about.

Doesn’t mean the Wachowskis didn’t have better motives. I’m just saying something about pots and kettles.
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Postby iLuvU2 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:25 pm

Yep.
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Postby th3_p4th on Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:20 pm

CaptPostMod wrote:The Wachowskis, on the other hand, want to make big fat sacks of cash. They’re making entertaining movies. I don’t have time to look up that quote, but there’s even a quote from them saying their motivation in making the films was to make a big wad of cash. That’s what making Hollywood movies is all about.

Doesn’t mean the Wachowskis didn’t have better motives. I’m just saying something about pots and kettles.


http://www.matrix-explained.com/php/pos ... html#79841

Translation from an interview written in Greek with the Ws talking about the original Matrix:

Q: While your movie, "the Matrix", seems to be based on a comic book, it's not.
A: Larry: It depends on how you see it. The comic was created not intentionally but because of our need to take the green light from Warner. You see from the very beginning we thought: Why not make it directly a movie? Where is the big money! *They start to laugh loudly*
Andy: We are talking about bags full of cash!


:P
CaptPostMod wrote:Well, you have to remember that I don't even think Sophia Stewart exists at all. :roll: :lol:
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Postby Feral_Boy on Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:57 pm

vieome wrote:PROVE TO ME THAT WE ARE NOT IN THE MATRIX.

I'm aware of only one real proof that anyone can make when they choose to get all philosophical and stuff:

"I think, therefore I am."

I can prove my own reality to myself, but I can't prove that everything else is some extremely detailed dream I'm having. And even if I were to have some sort of "redpill expereience" in which I am seemingly freed from my dream world, how do I know that I haven't just moved into yet another dream world, a la Matrix-within-a-Matrix? There's no proof, so everything beyond proving your own reality to yourself is guesswork based on a series of assumptions you make.

The sky is blue because the majority says it is, and the rest are labelled as being "color blind". :D
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Postby vieome on Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:30 am

I understand the not argument by cpt. But if we are in the matrix the only way to prove it would be by trying to hack the system.
The matrix is a system of mind, so can you use your mind to hack into the system and bring about something in reality.
We need to understand how the matrix works in order to hack. While we have discussed wht the matrix might mean I dont think we have ever tackle how the matrix works ...
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