The Matrix Fans 2007 forums

[vieome]

We know about the Oracle getting a New shell and we notice her RSI change
but has anyone got a thoery on what a shell is. Is it the body in the vat or a piece of code.

We have in the first matrix when the agents are about to be shot or shot they transfer to a blue pill thus taking over their body in the vat or is that the case?

Morpheus states also that if you are not one of us redpill you are an agent.
Does thus mean that agents operate in the matrix via a body in a vat?

[CaptPostMod]

It's wild, but I've never thought of that question before. I'd always just assumed that she was referring to her "RSI" but as machines don't have other selves there would be no residual self. So their RSI would just be their SI or shell.

Machines inhabiting bodies in pawn (the bodies in the vats) has long been a topic of debate. I think that the network as a whole inhabits those brains hooked into the powerplant. Just an efficient way to gather power and let the humans run their own trap at the same time.

[CloudWolf]

In my understanding shells are just pieces of code, RSIs.

First there was The Oracle, then in MxO people partially reconstructed the RSI of the One but it was stated to be pointless without a mind to inhabit it.

Later on in the story operatives had to find partially reconstructed Twin shells. Once all were found these pieces were combined into their wholes.

An interesting related point is the machine mind spies inhabiting redpills AND bluepills that were revealed recently...

[Feral_Boy]

In my understanding shells are just pieces of code, RSIs.

First there was The Oracle, then in MxO people partially reconstructed the RSI of the One but it was stated to be pointless without a mind to inhabit it.

Later on in the story operatives had to find partially reconstructed Twin shells. Once all were found these pieces were combined into their wholes.

An interesting related point is the machine mind spies inhabiting redpills AND bluepills that were revealed recently...

Okay, so here's where it gets confusing.

1) the Oracle's "self" is independent of her shell. This is shown by the fact that her shell can be destroyed, yet she continues on without it. She merely finds a new shell to inhabit.

2) a human's "self" is independent of his or her RSI. This is shown by the fact that Neo's RSI can be reassembled, yet without Neo's mind to inhabit it, the RSI is useless.

3) the Twins ARE their shells. Now I'm basing this off of your short little quote there. I'm assuming that in order to bring the Twins back into existence, all that was needed was to bring all the pieces of their RSI's back together and viola! You've got Twins! Or did their minds have to be found as well?

This also begs another question: if Neo's mind (and probably every other Zionist) is independent of their RSI, what's up with the Oracle? When her first shell was destroyed, where was her mind while she waited for her new shell? Was it floating around the Matrix? Did it temporarily return to the Source? To Mobil Ave? To the limbo that exists between the scripts for Reloaded and Revolutions? What IS a Machine "mind" anyway, and how does it compare to a human's mind?

[CloudWolf]

3) the Twins ARE their shells. Now I'm basing this off of your short little quote there. I'm assuming that in order to bring the Twins back into existence, all that was needed was to bring all the pieces of their RSI's back together and viola! You've got Twins! Or did their minds have to be found as well?

To elaborate on my point, when the twins were blown up their code was scattered and dissipated into the 'stratosphere' high above the city. The Merv used one of his synthesised cheat codes from chapter 6.2 to pull them back together. I would surmise this meant both their bodies and their 'minds' in one big gathering.

This also begs another question: if Neo's mind (and probably every other Zionist) is independent of their RSI, what's up with the Oracle? When her first shell was destroyed, where was her mind while she waited for her new shell? Was it floating around the Matrix? Did it temporarily return to the Source? To Mobil Ave? To the limbo that exists between the scripts for Reloaded and Revolutions? What IS a Machine "mind" anyway, and how does it compare to a human's mind?

All perfectly valid points. Though personally i don't think The Oracle would've been floating about, she knew what was going to happen and probably had it all planned out to go straight into the new shell.

Whats also interesting to add your point are those human beings corrupted by the mutated cheat codes... their minds/digital bodies and their real bodies became seperated, this is proofed by the fact their real bodies were confirmed as destroyed yet they lived on inside the matrix in a digital state. Essentially becoming exiles.

The same thing happened with Neo when he touched the sentinals at the end of Reloaded.

It's also a key point in the reconstruction plot device where just before death the operative's mind is pulled from their body, that body proceeds to die and then their mind is reloaded into a new body created when jacking back into the matrix.

So yeah, mind are body are technicually seperate. Afterall, its all code. Well, the bodies are at least, it seems the mind is treated as something sacred and unmanipulable in that sense.

[vieome]

Well i think that the idea of what is the shell gets even more confusion when
concider smith taking over al the minds in the matrix. What happens to the minds of the people how are they recovered to reload the matrix

[CloudWolf]

Well i think that the idea of what is the shell gets even more confusion when
concider smith taking over al the minds in the matrix. What happens to the minds of the people how are they recovered to reload the matrix

Aye, another unanswered mystery. The same princible applies with the machine overwriting of red/bluepills as living spies in MxO, they were controlled by the machine programs yet when removed by Seraph the previous being returned to the surface.

I suppose the 'overwritting' of one's mind isnt overwritting at all but merely surpressing the original so the new one can take control.

What brings up an interesting idea, what if Seraph was able to remove overwritting during the movies? Could he have stopped the spread of Smith? Or even saved the mind of Bane?

[max314]

We know about the Oracle getting a New shell and we notice her RSI change
but has anyone got a thoery on what a shell is. Is it the body in the vat or a piece of code.

We have in the first matrix when the agents are about to be shot or shot they transfer to a blue pill thus taking over their body in the vat or is that the case?

Morpheus states also that if you are not one of us redpill you are an agent.
Does thus mean that agents operate in the matrix via a body in a vat?

RSI stands for 'residual self-image'. It's a term that applies to humans who are jacked into the Matrix i.e. it is the human mind's own image projecting its 'body image'.

A 'shell', for want of a better analogy, is sort of like a computer program's equivalent of a human's RSI. The difference, of course, is that this shell is a part of the program, which is why the Oracle's internal programming appears to be slightly different after her shell has changed.

So, in short, an "RSI" is the term applied to the image of humans within the Matrix, whereas the term "shell" applies to the image produced by a program.

[vieome]

MAX wrote
RSI stands for 'residual self-image'. It's a term that applies to humans who are jacked into the Matrix i.e. it is the human mind's own image projecting its 'body image'.

A 'shell', for want of a better analogy, is sort of like a computer program's equivalent of a human's RSI. The difference, of course, is that this shell is a part of the program, which is why the Oracle's internal programming appears to be slightly different after her shell has changed.

So, in short, an "RSI" is the term applied to the image of humans within the Matrix, whereas the term "shell" applies to the image produced by a program.

Max I dont you answered the question. Are not all images produced by the program. Inthe case of RSI the mind provides the image but it still has tobe translated by the program, and it is the program providing the image for mind. I>E Neo how he sees himself in the matrix is fro what the matrix is telling hs brain. The programs in th matrix use different terms to refer to the same things that the humans use diferent terms, but alas the things are the same.

Neo: The Oracle
Archie: Please

[max314]

Max I dont you answered the question. Are not all images produced by the program. Inthe case of RSI the mind provides the image but it still has tobe translated by the program, and it is the program providing the image for mind. I>E Neo how he sees himself in the matrix is fro what the matrix is telling hs brain. The programs in th matrix use different terms to refer to the same things that the humans use diferent terms, but alas the things are the same.

Neo: The Oracle
Archie: Please

You asked:

"We know about the Oracle getting a New shell and we notice her RSI change
but has anyone got a thoery on what a shell is. Is it the body in the vat or a piece of code."

I noticed that you refer to the Oracle's appearance as "her RSI", and that it changed due to her "getting a new shell". In my previous reply, I tried to illustrate the difference between the two things. The term "shell" is always applied to programs, and the term "RSI" is always applied to humans.

The term "shell", by its very nature, implies a nature of superficialitiy or appearance. Therefore, I concluded that a programs "shell" would share certain imagistic qualities with the RSI of a human who was jacked into the Matrix.

You then ask whether a "shell is...the body in the vat or a piece of code". Again, there seems to be a blurring of distinction between what a "shell" is and what an "RSI" is (i.e. that one is applied to programs and the other to humans).

To reiterate: yes, there are commonalities between a program's shell and a human's RSI. One of the themes of the trilogy seems to be that Man and Machine are not as dissimilar as some might make out. However, they are applied in different contexts, so it would be good practice to understand and honour what those respective contexts are.

Your root question, however, is whether the 'appearance' of humans are a code-based phenomenon or a biological phenomenon. The answer is that it is both. It is induced by the human brain, and is then translated into code, which is then expressed as a metaphysical reality within the confines of the Matrix program.

"We have in the first matrix when the agents are about to be shot or shot they transfer to a blue pill thus taking over their body in the vat or is that the case?"

"Morpheus states also that if you are not one of us redpill you are an agent.
Does thus mean that agents operate in the matrix via a body in a vat?"

As is explained during the Agent training scene in the first film, the blue pills are "hardwired to the system" and the Agents are therefore able to move in and out of them. What occurs is obviously a code-based phenomenon but, as we have learned throughout the films, things from inside the Matrix affect the human mind as much as the human mind can affect things inside the Matrix. It is a symbiotic world.

Therefore, the Agent's sentient prgramming (i.e. an Agent's consciousness) can overwrite the consciousness of a blue pill.

The phrase "anyone we haven't unplugged is potentially an Agent" (emphasis added) means precisely that; if you're a blue pill, then the risk of you metamorphosising into an Agent is always a real danger.

[CloudWolf]

Just a little something i noticed while archive missioning the other day:

The above is from a relatively bog standard lupine exile.

Personally i believe (and feel this backs up) the fact that AIs too have 'souls', that is to say a counciousness that is seperate from their bodies (shells).

Now this soul is probably dispersed when the AI is destroyed - In machine operated programs that soul would then travel to the source (see Smith, he choose source/exile after death) but for an Exile they're stuck in limbo with their code no doubt slowly dissipating into nothingness. Now if they're resourceful (or have a certain degree of power in the exile world) they likely have 'back-up' shells they can resort to (though this process may effect certain functions/memories of the program with my proposed soul degrading).

The Oracle, The Twins and the above support the shell theory anyway.

I think this is an important revelation because it really shows that 'death' to an exile is not a 100% 'end' like many believe, you just have to be a big enough power to warrent the option of shells (who knows how they're made, coded by the exile themselves or perhaps made by a certain special exile capable of the task? That has yet to be elaborated on)

[Feral_Boy]

Added to the mix is the General, who was a program inside a physical squiddie, who created a shell for himself in the Matrix, and dumped his physical squiddie body. So you could say that just as the squiddie was the "body" of the General, but not his "soul", so also the shell is the "body" of the General now, which his "soul" inhabits. So this "soul" of the Machines is their mobile essence, which they can separate from old bodies and inhabit new ones.

This was probably not thought to be the case with humans until this storyline CloudWolf has mentioned in which human minds inside the Matrix continue to live on, despite the fact that their physical bodies are now dead.

Now I have to ask the question which I remember asking a long time ago on the other Matrix forum. In Matrix mythology, when we see human RSI's walking around in the Matrix, is that actually the mind of the human we're looking at? In other words, is the human's mind actually LOCATED inside a virtual reality program? I realize that speaking about "locations" in reference to a virtual reality program is different than speaking of locations in a physical world. In the physical world, you can point to the spot you're standing and say, "I am standing right here." But in the Matrix, what do you point at?

Does a human mind actually "leave" the body and "enter" the Matrix--with the mind and body possibly maintaining some sort of link that cannot be severed if the human wants to stay alive? This would seem to be the case, since all you have to do to kill a Zionist is to unjack him or her from their connection before their mind has had a chance to "return" to their bodies. As Morpheus stated, "The body cannot live without the mind."

It's important to make this point, because it shows the dualist thinking inherent in the Matrix movies--that is, that the mind is separate from the body. If it weren't then you wouldn't be able to "jack into" the Matrix. Your mind wouldn't be able to "leave" your body. Disconnecting someone from the Matrix before they had a chance to "return" to their bodies would not kill them.

There is actually a debate among philosophers as to the nature of the connection between mind and body. Is the mind simply a process of the physical brain? Or is it something ethereal that is "apart" from the physical body and can both affect and be affected by the physical body? The Wachowski Brothers have shown their opinion in the matter by creating a storyline which absolutely necessitates dualist thinking, in which the mind is separate from the body. Everything we see in the continuing storyline of the Matrix Online should reflect this viewpoint, as it has up to this point--up to and including human minds being able to live on past the death of their physical bodies.

This is also very important, because when asking questions about the current whereabouts of Neo, it should no longer be necessary to find his physical body to locate "him". The part that is the essence, the soul, of Neo is not his body. His body is merely the shell for his soul. So even if it's disclosed that his body has been destroyed, Neo's soul may still exist in some other place.