The Matrix Fans 2007 forums

[CaptPostMod]

So there's been a question put forward, "What is the Source?"

We've actually worked on this one a bunch, but we don't have a specific thread for it here (I don't remember a specific one back at MEx either).

Is the Source the singular consciousness that spawned a race of machines? The machine mainframe? Jehovah? The collective subconcious of all the machines or everyone plugged into the Matrix? A deity, a universal force, a program?

For my 2 cents, I think the Wachowskis meant for the Source to correspond to the One Thing depicted here in a famous visual representation of the Emerald Tablet:

[iLuvU2]

This might get interesting.

[Feral_Boy]

As always, my input in these Matrix-related conversations starts off with the technical side of things rather than the philosophical or spiritual. I know Intell probably had a difficult time with me doing that--and I understand why--but it's how I like to do it.

One of the questions I always had about the Source from a chronological standpoint is when was it created? When we see the rise of the Machines and Zero One in the Animatrix, there is no specific mention of the Source or a single Machine Mainframe. The robots start out as individual and separate personalities that eventually congregated together, but there was nothing unifying them in the beginning. So somewhere between the Animatrix and the movie trilogy, the Machines must have decided to CREATE the Source and set it up. This is very interesting to me, because it calls to mind all those notions of how people create their own god and then choose to become subservient to it.

The only possible hint of the Source that I can see in the Animatrix is when it talks about the robots moving to the Middle East:


Banished from humanity, the machines sought refuge in their own promised land. They settled in the cradle of human civilization, and thus a new nation was born. A place the machines could call home, a place they could raise their descendants, and they christened the nation ‘Zero one’. Zero one prospered, and for a time, it was good. The machine’s artificial intelligence could be seen in every facet of society, including the creation of new and better AI.

[vieome]

This is def not going to be an easy topic to cover. I like to think that the source, is the God of the world, and by God, I do not mean the one commonly held in the views of the religious, but I use God as a symbol, for the unknown power behind the many unexplainded things in life. But now in thinking about this in terms of the matrix universe I find several other possibilities open up.

Feral mentions info we have from Animatrix which makes a good starting point.
But what we dont have is information on wether the first reference of the source made by
the Oracle was meant to be source of life or source of the matrix.

So I will assume that the Oracle who is a program created by Dues can only think in terms of the matrix universe (as all programs are governed by the world they were created in.) So I think it is safe to conclued, that the source the Oracle speaks of is the source of the matrix. This, Neo seems to understand and that is why he refers to the source of the matrix as the machine mainframe. Now if the source is indeed the mainframe then an important question arises and that is how can a man be connected to a machine without cables(wireless)? I am talking about Neos power in stopping the sentinals. How is the mind of man connected to the mainframe?

Now the source as the names implies is the starting point. So the source of the matrix would be the machine main frame, created by the singular conciousness A>I.
Yet the actual begining of the matrix seems to have its roots further back in History, as we are told in the animatrix.

In the begining was man and for a time it was good. So this would point to the source
of the matrix as being man. Man created a machine(tool) that trapped his mind in a computer generated universe. Now at this point we can only go back further, because we cant be sure who provided the information in animatrix, man or machine. And that returns us to the Original Source of man that was known to man before the matrix.


In the Begining was God(Source)
he created heavens and earth
Blah Blah blah

And I guess that still leaves me with the stand point that God(power behind the many unexplainded things in life) is the source.

[vieome]

Okay there is another explaination that is playing on my brain, but it verges on MWAM so I have bit of reluctance in puting it forward.

In the book Out of Control which was required reading for the person who was chosen to play the part of the One. Kevin Kelly talks about Richard dawkins creating a simple computer program that emulates evolution. Richard mentions that after letting the program run, which just created different animated shapes, he started getting shapes like butterflies and that.

Now strech or imagination abit for the next part. Let say that Richards Dawkins program was allowed to run for billions of years, and eventually the evolution of the little animations takes on complexity and evolves people who are like us but unaware that they are just in a computer program. In this case it makes Richard the source of life. So I am assuming that it is possible that a greater intel then ours could of created such a program that evolved into the matrix.

So if we use the dawkins idea as a source to view this argument, we can say safely I presume, that that would make the Wachowski the source of the matrix.
They created a program in which man entered his mind and over time evolved the matrix, the collective concious of man.
But I am still more with the idea in gold!

[Feral_Boy]

So I will assume that the Oracle who is a program created by Dues

Is that something that was actually revealed? In other words, do we know WHEN the Oracle was created? For all we know, she might have been one of the original robots who built Zero One. I doubt that, though, since the Architect tells Neo that she is "...an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche." That makes me think that she was probably created AFTER Zero One was already built, and most likely AFTER the Machines defeated the humans. Archie's description reminds me of the scenes from the Animatrix where humans are experimented on in their attempts to understand how humans work. Some of the info revealed from the Matrix Online game also delves a little bit into this time period.

So I think it is safe to conclued, that the source the Oracle speaks of is the source of the matrix.

I've always felt this way as well. I've always felt that the Source was supposed to represent more than that, however, and I think the Wachowski Brothers attempt to show the Source's ability to affect more than just the Matrix by showing how it can supply power to Neo in the Real. It's not as impressive as its power over the entire virtual world of the Matrix, but for what it's worth, I can forgive that (if that was, in fact, their intention).

Now if the source is indeed the mainframe then an important question arises and that is how can a man be connected to a machine without cables(wireless)?

Perhaps the better question would be how is NEO able to access the Machine Mainframe wirelessly. I say this because my assumption is that out of everyone who was ever plugged into the Matrix (bluepills and redpills), only Neo has a direct connection to the Source. I believe it is part of--if not the only thing--that makes Neo the One. My explanation for this delves into my theories about what the integral anomaly is, so I won't go there right now.

So the source of the matrix would be the machine main frame, created by the singular conciousness A>I.

Or perhaps the singular artificial intelligence IS the Source. In other words, when its hinted at in the Animatrix that the Machines built better AI, perhaps that is a reference to the Source.

In the begining was man and for a time it was good. So this would point to the source
of the matrix as being man.

Man was definitely the architect of his own demise, that's for sure!

Man created a machine(tool) that trapped his mind in a computer generated universe. Now at this point we can only go back further, because we cant be sure who provided the information in animatrix, man or machine. And that returns us to the Original Source of man that was known to man before the matrix.

And here is the limitation of the symbolism of the Matrix mythology, since the Machines only exist chronologically for a short time during mankind's entire history. Yet as Tozy has proven many times to my own satisfaction that the characters in the Matrix comprise a single metaphor for all the aspects of our consciousness--that the One is many and the many are One. That being said, I think that to get the most out of the symbolism of the Matrix mythology, one must forget the fact that there is thousands of years of human history before the existence of the Machines, and instead concentrate on the revealed story of the trilogy as a sort of self-contained mini-story of ALL humanity. Or something like that.

[CaptPostMod]

So the source of the matrix would be the machine main frame, created by the singular conciousness A>I.

Or perhaps the singular artificial intelligence IS the Source. In other words, when its hinted at in the Animatrix that the Machines built better AI, perhaps that is a reference to the Source.

Following cosmology, first was the Source. Then there was the singular AI, which would have been Sophia (aka, the Oracle), from her came the Demiurge (the Architect), and from him came the Matrix. Thoth/Christ/Buddha (aka, The One) comes again and again, existing outside time, to complete the loop and return Man to the Source.

[Feral_Boy]

So the source of the matrix would be the machine main frame, created by the singular conciousness A>I.

Or perhaps the singular artificial intelligence IS the Source. In other words, when its hinted at in the Animatrix that the Machines built better AI, perhaps that is a reference to the Source.

Following cosmology, first was the Source. Then there was the singular AI, which would have been Sophia (aka, the Oracle), from her came the Demiurge (the Architect), and from him came the Matrix. Thoth/Christ/Buddha (aka, The One) comes again and again, existing outside time, to complete the loop and return Man to the Source.

The idea of the Architect coming from the Oracle is very interesting. Is there anything in the movies that would contradict that notion? We know that the Oracle's version of the Matrix came later, but that doesn't mean that she also came after the Architect. What if she created him? Although there is something poetic about the two of them potentially being created simultaneously, as a sort of yin and yang balance--which she claims she has with him.

Here's an interesting quote I found about Sophia in Wikipedia:

Sophia's fear and anguish of losing her life (just as she lost the light of the One) caused confusion and longing to return to it. Because of these longings, matter (Greek: hyle, ‘υλη) and soul (Greek: psyche, ψυχή) accidentally came into existence through the four elements: fire, water, earth, and air. The creation of the lion-faced Demiurge is also a mistake made during this exile, according to some Gnostic sources as a result of Sophia trying to emanate on her own, without her male counterpart. The Demiurge proceeds to create the physical world in which we live, ignorant of Sophia, who nevertheless managed to infuse some spiritual spark or pneuma into the creation of the Demiurge.

After this the savior (Christ) returns and lets her see the light again, bringing her knowledge of the spirit (Greek: pneuma, πνευμα). Christ was then sent to earth in the form of the man Jesus to give men the gnosis needed to rescue themselves from the physical world and return to the spiritual world.

So the Demiurge (Architect) would be Sophia's (Oracle's) counterpart, and he creates the physical world (Matrix) ignorant of Sophia (Oracle), who nevertheless managed to infuse some spiritual spark or pneuma (via the option to choose and the Path of the One) into the creation (Matrix) of the Demiurge (Architect). After this the savior (Neo) returns (after five previous Ones) and lets her see the light again, bringing her knowledge of the spirit (not sure what the Matrix equivalent is). Christ (Neo) was then sent to earth (Matrix) in the form of the man Jesus (the One) to give men the gnosis needed to rescue themselves from the physical world (Matrix) and return to the spiritual world (Zion).

How 'bout THEM apples?

[CaptPostMod]

Awesome post, Feral Boy! 8)

[vieome]

Now in terms of the source, and what it is will always come down to the thing
the matrix most reflects in the individual.

And for me what the matrix most reflects is the story of man(Matrix symbol=Neo)
But it is not easy for me to explain this in terms of the matrix so I will say it how I see
the message coming across.

The first Insight
The first insight that the matrix provides is that what we think is true is all based on belief.
We live our lives based in what we believe. When we think about the truth of this statement, we immediately recognize a startling reality: Beyond anything else that we may actually do in our lives, the beliefs that precede our actions are the foundation of all that we cherish, dream, become, and accomplish.

From the morning rituals that we go through to greet the world each day, to the inventions that we use to make our lives better, to the technology that destroys life through war - our personal routines, community customs, religious ceremonies, and entire civilizations are based on our beliefs.

Not only do our beliefs provide the structure for the way we live our lives, now the same areas of study that have discounted our inner experiences in the past are showing us that the way we feel about the world around us is a force that extends into that world.

In this way, science is catching up with our most cherished spiritual and indigenous traditions, which have always told us: that our world is nothing more than a reflection of what we accept in our beliefs.

We live our lives based on what we believe about our world, ourselves, our capabilities, and our limits.

With access to such a power already within us, to say that our beliefs are important to life is an understatement. Our beliefs are life! They are where it begins and how it sustains itself. From our immune response and the hormones that regulate and balance our bodies . . . to our ability to heal bones, organs, and skin - and even conceive life - the role of human belief is rapidly taking center stage in the new frontiers of quantum biology and physics.

If our beliefs hold so much power, and if we live our lives based on what we believe, then the obvious question is: Where do our beliefs come from? The answer may surprise you.

With few exceptions, they originate with what science, history, religion, culture, and family tell us. In other words, the essence of our capabilities and limits may well be based in what other people tell us. That realization leads to the next question that we must ask ourselves:

If our lives are based on what we believe, then what if those beliefs are wrong?
So in what I have said the only way for you to see it, is to view the matrix through the eyes of the man who was lving in ignorance like us but found out the true nature of the world he lived in.

WHAT IS THE SOURCE?
It is what ever you believe it to be, there is no truth in the world and everything is based
on belief.


Insight 2
So knowing that everything in our lifes is about believe it takes us to a very important questions, can you choose what to believe? and if you believe something through and through will it happen for you.

What if we’re more than this? Could it be that we’re really very powerful beings in disguise? What if we’re delegates of miraculous potential, born into this world with capabilities beyond our wildest dreams - ones that we’ve simply forgotten under the conditions that have shocked us into the dreamlike state of being powerless?

How would our lives change, for instance, if we discovered that we’re born with the power to reverse disease? Or what if we could choose the peace in our world, the abundance in our lives, and how long we live? What if we found that the universe itself is directly affected by a power that we’ve hidden from ourselves for so long that we’ve forgotten it’s even ours?

Such a radical discovery would change everything. It would alter what we believe about ourselves, the universe, and our role within it.

Modern qauntum philosphy points to the fact that our world is very much like the matrix that our world is all mind.

Insight 3.
The only way to rise above the limiting believe that our world is like the world of Thomas is to try and Live in Neos World. Now forgeting the belief that Neos world is the world of Zion matrix hacker, and believing that it is a world of mind. What power can you access. Do you make up your own mind of does life the matrix make up your mind for you.

So the source of Neos power comes wit neos ability to believe anything. He blieved he could stop the sentinals and he did.

P.S while a lot of people reflect on matrix online for further insight, I feel that all the answers are containg in the trilogy and animatrix and a trip to the matrix online is only going to take one further down the rabbit hole. But I believe that the matrix is better understood by entering the rabbit hole to eventually emerge and look at your life which is like Thomas with matrix eyes, so that you eventually see, that everything in the rabbit hole is just a reflection of life in a symbolic way. And the most important reflection is the symbol Neo.

[Autonomous_Program]

So there's been a question put forward, "What is the Source?"

I would say the simple answer to this question is that "The Source" refers to the "Source Code" of the Matrix. The Matrix is the "Global Program", or Operating System. When a program returns to "The Source" it is reverting to it's original programming code to be decompiled and examined and then either reprogrammed or deleted.

That's what I always thought of when they referred to "The Source" in the movies.

[iLuvU2]

So there's been a question put forward, "What is the Source?"

I would say the simple answer to this question is that "The Source" refers to the "Source Code" of the Matrix. The Matrix is the "Global Program", or Operating System. When a program returns to "The Source" it is reverting to it's original programming code to be decompiled and examined and then either reprogrammed or deleted.

That's what I always thought of when they referred to "The Source" in the movies.

Then how does Thomas return to the Source?

[Feral_Boy]

So there's been a question put forward, "What is the Source?"

I would say the simple answer to this question is that "The Source" refers to the "Source Code" of the Matrix. The Matrix is the "Global Program", or Operating System. When a program returns to "The Source" it is reverting to it's original programming code to be decompiled and examined and then either reprogrammed or deleted.

That's what I always thought of when they referred to "The Source" in the movies.

Then how does Thomas return to the Source?

Another question along the same line is this: what does Neo do when he returns to the Source? When programs return to the Source, they get deleted. What happens when a human goes to the Source?

I also find it interesting that according to the Architect the One returns to the Source, meaning that he originally came from there. Out of all the humans that get plugged into the Matrix, only the One is derived from the Source. That does not mean that he is a program, however--far from it. The trilogy goes out of its way--especially in M2--to let you know that Neo is in fact just a human being. According to the Oracle, the power of the One comes from the Source, and the connection between the One and the Source is strong enough that it can give him power not just in the Matrix but in the Real as well.

So getting back to the question(s), how does the One return to the Source, and what does he do once he does? A third question could be what happens to the One after he returns to the Source?