The Matrix Fans 2007 forums

[Feral_Boy]

If you hear Ken Wilber wax poetic about the Matrix series and what it means, he attempts to make a connection between what he thinks the Wachowski Brothers are trying to say and his own integral interpretations of the universe. And although I'm very unfamiliar with the intricacies of integral thinking, the gist of it seems to be that it attempts to tie together all kinds of different philosophies, religions and points of view into a cohesive whole.

While I personally find this sort of approach naive rather than enlightened, I suppose it's inevitable. I believe that the power of ultimate truth is not in the form of a sort of distilled commonality found across the board in many different faiths, but in the extreme uniqueness of a single viewpoint. Call me unenlightened if you want, but that's how I feel about it.

[CaptPostMod]

While I personally find this sort of approach naive rather than enlightened, I suppose it's inevitable. I believe that the power of ultimate truth is not in the form of a sort of distilled commonality found across the board in many different faiths, but in the extreme uniqueness of a single viewpoint. Call me unenlightened if you want, but that's how I feel about it.

I (shocking as it might be to those not paying attention) fully agree. If you're a vanilla lover, then you want vanilla ice cream.

And saying that all ice cream flavors are really the same isn't quite it. Sure, they're all made of milk and sweetner and cold, but each has its own distinct taste. And trying to mix your favorite from others, well sometimes that kinda works if you're really careful (a nice chocolate vanilla swirl)...

... But mostly it's just a mess. Especially if you're trying to rock the single serve Vermonster like Wilber does.

[tozy]

http://www.ciis.edu/lifelong/hustonsmith_interview.html

and while we are at it:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5723928558446879967

[Feral_Boy]

Capt, I loved your ice cream analogies! But I have to admit, despite my leaning toward a single flavor, I can't help but be curious about that Vermonster. Holy cow, I'd never heard of that thing before!!

Tozy, very interesting interview. I very much agree with him about his assessment of "scientism" which elevates science above any level it has a right to attain, as well as his opinion that science cannot answer the larger questions of life. I have to say that I don't quite understand why anyone would WANT science to be the end-all of the universe and not want to search any deeper--either within themselves or outside. I find that I lose touch with my sense of purpose the moment I detach from the idea that there is a REASON for everything that happens. And I have to say that I laugh whenever an atheist claims that there is no God, because there is no way that anyone could prove that. Since God is spirit, there is no way to measure Him through science. How can instruments that are designed to measure the things INSIDE of this universe be expected to measure those which are OUTSIDE of it? When atheists have emotion-based opinions like that (because logic would not come to such a conclusion), it gives away their status as a human like the rest of us. We all believe what we WANT to believe, despite our attempts to attach as much logic or truth to it. Our beliefs are either based on truth, or they are not. It's that simple.

I believe in God, yet I cannot prove He exists. There have been many times when I have prayed about something, and later received a confirmation of the subject matter that was laid on my heart. But that is a spirit issue, not something that can be quantified or measured. And yet, I wouldn't have it any other way. There are things going on in the church I attend that lead me to believe that God is preparing to move in a tremendous way, and I am very excited about it. Several months ago when I returned to that church when I felt God's leading in that direction, I thought I knew what the reasons were. But I am constantly learning about His heart on certain issues and I am always being reminded of what His concerns are for humanity.

I am even blowing the dust off one of my favorite doctrines that I had put to the side for a while--universal reconciliation. The idea that everyone who ever existed will eventually find salvation through Jesus Christ just gives me the warm fuzzies all over! I believe that there is just one path to God--not many--because Jesus said that HE is the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father but through him. This subject is so huge, and so misunderstood by the "orthodox" church (better termed as "traditional") that it makes me sad on how much good stuff they're missing out on--as well as turning off potential Christians with their talk of eternal punishment for the vast majority of humankind. No wonder atheists think that the Christian God is a vengeful hypocrite, who tells His followers to love their enemies yet refuses to do so Himself!

Ahem. I'm putting down my soapbox now.

[tozy]

I believe that there is just one path to God--not many--because Jesus said that HE is the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father but through him.

The more I learn about religion, the more I wonder if it is different paths, or the same path walked differently...

Have you watched the video as well? It is looong, but very much worth watching.
In case you have watched it, I'd be interested in your opinion about what he says about "literalism" being a major problem of religions and why; and about what he says about theistic and atheistic religions (God and Godhead) towards the end of the video.

Ahem. I'm putting down my soapbox now.

But don't throw it away...

[CaptPostMod]

I have to say that I don't quite understand why anyone would WANT science to be the end-all of the universe and not want to search any deeper--either within themselves or outside.

Science is unique in that it is the only religion which actually is able to perform what it says it can.

Ask a faith healer to heal someone who's just been shot through the kneecap. The faith healer might do something about it (might just be to teach the person that God has a reason for his getting shot in the leg), but a trained doctor could definitely do something noticable and concrete about it.

A guru might tell you he can move things without touching them, but if you challenge him to do it, he probably won't produce (without turning to the science of magic tricks). Ask a scientist to move something without touching it and she'll do it.

But, are works alone what we should know the truth by?

[vieome]

"A man climbed to the top of a mountain and, standing on tiptoe, seized hold of the Truth. Satan, suspecting mischief from this upstart, had directed one of his underlings to tail him; but when the demon reported with alarm the man's success - that he had seized hold of the truth - Satan was unperturbed. "Don't worry", he yawned. "I'll tempt him to institutionalize it."
Huston Smith - "The World's Religions"

Thanks that was exactly what I needed to hear(N).

You wanted to know(M) whats Neo(new). The computer(machine) generated dream world.

Notes
explaination for warewolves vampires ghost.

[Feral_Boy]

I believe that there is just one path to God--not many--because Jesus said that HE is the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father but through him.

The more I learn about religion, the more I wonder if it is different paths, or the same path walked differently...

I guess I could make a compromise that is based on my personal experience, although I doubt most people would consider it a compromise since it still falls under the "Jesus only" category. I've seen that Christians disagree on many, many doctrinal and philosophical issues--even among the apostles in the New Testament (Paul chewed out the apostles in Jerusalem once when they were being hypocrites). But the presence of disagreements does not seem to invalidate anyone's salvation. However, there IS a point when someone's understanding can be so far removed from the truth that they are not saved. What is that line? How can you know what is "close enough" to the truth to be able to discern if you've attained a "saving knowledge"?

Here's how I see it. Some religions and philosophies center around knowledge and attaining understanding of certain things, whereas the New Testament teaches that it revolves around a person--Jesus Christ. If you believe in Jesus Christ as your messiah, the New Testament says that you are saved. So far as I know it does not specify whether or not you need to believe that Jesus is deity, the third person of a Trinitarian godhead or strictly human. The New Testament does touch on these issues, to be sure, but it does not say (as far as I know, anyway) that you must think of Jesus a certain way in order for your salvation to be sure. So whereas I do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, I do not feel that Christians who disagree with me are unsaved. I still treat them as brothers and sisters in Christ. Why? Because even though they do not believe in WHAT Jesus is the same way I do, they believe in WHO he is the same way I do--which is that he is the messiah and that he is the only way to God the Father.

Paul even stated that we see through a glass darkly on these matters, but that when Jesus returns we will see clearly. Our darkened understanding will give way to the light of absolute truth. For now we must live according to faith, and that faith must be in Jesus. How you define the identity of Jesus seems to be up for grabs, but his role as messiah is not. Because the Father chose to make His Son the only doorway through which mankind may reach Him, no other way, religion or methodology will suffice.

Have you watched the video as well? It is looong, but very much worth watching.
In case you have watched it, I'd be interested in your opinion about what he says about "literalism" being a major problem of religions and why; and about what he says about theistic and atheistic religions (God and Godhead) towards the end of the video.

At work it's a little difficult to watch videos. Would you be so kind as to paraphrase what he said?

[Feral_Boy]

But, are works alone what we should know the truth by?

That is a great question, Capt. And in the case of Jesus, he answered in the positive. When he forgave a sick man of his sins, the religious leaders got their panties all in a bunch about it. They said that only God could forgive sins. Jesus replied with a question: is it easier to say to a sick man that his sins are forgiven or to tell him to get up and walk? Before they could answer, he replied that in order to prove that he had the authority to forgive sins, he was given the power to heal. So his powers were not just to wow the crowds but to lend credence to the fact that he was indeed the messiah. Even the religious leaders who hated him could not deny that he was performing miracles, so they resorted to claiming that he was performing them under the influence of Beelzebub (Satan or literally "the lord of the flies").

[psikeyhackr]

While I personally find this sort of approach naive rather than enlightened, I suppose it's inevitable.

And trying to mix your favorite from others, well sometimes that kinda works if you're really careful (a nice chocolate vanilla swirl)...

What if the different philosophies and religions are variations on misinterpretations of the truth. Sometimes deliberate misinterpretations with religious leaders more interested in power over their followers than pursuit of truth.

I suspected the real system worked on reincarnation long before I ever saw The Matrix.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm

Much of European philosophy is just egoistic pseudo-intellectual bullsh!t in my opinion.

Having a favorite means losing objectivity. But getting caught up in debates is a distraction. What is important, figuring out the truth for yourself or winning debates?

So the question is, "What is the truth?" Why care which religion is the closest to it? Trash everything but the whole truth. Trash whatever is in The Matrix that ain't The Truth. The problem is figuring out what it is.

psik

[vieome]

The matrix differs from what science and religion are trying to offer us in that it is a coming together of the two into one body. Thus science and religion in the matrix are one. With the advent of quantum physics the scientest a

[Feral_Boy]

Trash whatever is in The Matrix that ain't The Truth. The problem is figuring out what it is.

Ay, there's the rub.

[CaptPostMod]

Trash whatever is in The Matrix that ain't The Truth. The problem is figuring out what it is.

The Truth is a myth.

[Feral_Boy]

Trash whatever is in The Matrix that ain't The Truth. The problem is figuring out what it is.

The Truth is a myth.

So if "The Truth is a myth" does that mean that THAT statement is The Truth? Because if you're making an absolute statement that there is no absolute truth, then you've just contradicted yourself by STATING an absolute truth.

[CaptPostMod]

So if "The Truth is a myth" does that mean that THAT statement is The Truth? Because if you're making an absolute statement that there is no absolute truth, then you've just contradicted yourself by STATING an absolute truth.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes