The Matrix Fans 2007 forums

[Feral_Boy]

So if "The Truth is a myth" does that mean that THAT statement is The Truth? Because if you're making an absolute statement that there is no absolute truth, then you've just contradicted yourself by STATING an absolute truth.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes

Yay! We're devolving into insulting each other! I was wondering when we'd reach that point! Okay, let me try. Umm...may a sick camel spit in your Cheerios! Yeah, take THAT, Capt!!!

[CaptPostMod]

So if "The Truth is a myth" does that mean that THAT statement is The Truth? Because if you're making an absolute statement that there is no absolute truth, then you've just contradicted yourself by STATING an absolute truth.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes

Yay! We're devolving into insulting each other! I was wondering when we'd reach that point! Okay, let me try. Umm...may a sick camel spit in your Cheerios! Yeah, take THAT, Capt!!!

No insult meant. (I miss the laughing emoticon). I was actually agreeing with you in a joking fashion. As you say, if you say there is no truth, than you are negating your own statement because by it being true, it must not be true.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes," is the same kinda nonsense statement. Only Siths (an absolute) deal in absolutes is a statement that by being stated makes the declarer a Sith himself.

So my own arguement must be false because if there is no Truth, than there can be no Truth that there is no Truth.

[psikeyhackr]

Umm...may a sick camel spit in your Cheerios! Yeah, take THAT, Capt!!!

He eats Captain Crunch.

Cereal killers aren't bothered by insults, they just take you out.

psik

[CaptPostMod]

What if we changed it from "There is no truth" to "Everything is truth"? Gets rid of the paradox negating the first statement, right?

[Feral_Boy]

Capt, no worries. I knew you was jus' kiddin'. And you actually inspired me to change my avatar to a Sith and revel in the fact that I deal in absolutes.

But I thought of another potential variation: This sentence is the only absolute truth. Whaddya think? Self-contained, acknowledges that there's absolute truth, yet excludes everything else. Atheists would love it, I think.

[psikeyhackr]

Oh no!

I missed the deja vu!

The System has been changed, the windows are bricked up.


AHAHAhAhahahahaaaa.....


psik

[eddyrocket]

I had thought about that what is God. And I know there are many interprets for what a God is, but I guess in the post, it means to rise above ones human nature. That is our addictions, habits, the things which we are not in control of.

As in Hinduism's Atman, Buddhism's Buddha nature, Gnosticism's divine spark etc etc?

I wanted to add that in terms of the matrix and the subjective world the wachows are presenting it is all about controlling ones thoughts, thus we are addicted to certains thoughts and hence we create or construct a reality based on those thoughts.

But why? What is new about that?

however with all the old religious ideas the reason they are hard is because the keepers of the ideas what to maintain control over the followers. We see the catholics popes and that have many secrets. Making these religions like microsoft closed source. But the matrix is open source free for all and easier to understand the path of Neo.

"A man climbed to the top of a mountain and, standing on tiptoe, seized hold of the Truth. Satan, suspecting mischief from this upstart, had directed one of his underlings to tail him; but when the demon reported with alarm the man's success - that he had seized hold of the truth - Satan was unperturbed. "Don't worry", he yawned. "I'll tempt him to institutionalize it."
Huston Smith - "The World's Religions"

The pope is not Christianity. He is the head of one Christian institution, originally elected as the leader in interpreting the Christian scriptures.

-> I think we have to differenciate between the original concept and an interpretation of this concept.

Over at MeX you asked me why we all try and explain the Matrix through the old theories and religions. Wasn't the Matrix bringing us a new (Neo) way of looking at the world?
It is my understanding that the Matrix does not give us something entirely new; the new imo is a new interpretation of the old wisdom. Or - to put it differently - a non-interpreting presentation of the old wisdom.

Just my two cent, of course...

Good points! I really enjoyed reading this. It really met my need for clarity.

[eddyrocket]

"So the question is, "What is the truth?" Why care which religion is the closest to it? Trash everything but the whole truth. Trash whatever is in The Matrix that ain't The Truth. The problem is figuring out what it is."

psik

Maybe we can explore this some more. The ideal is for more people to discover The Truth. How can we find it and help more people attain The Truth? Any ideas?

[vieome]

eddyrocket welcome to the forum.

What is truth. Truth is a perspective in my opinion, given solidness when numbers of people believe the same thing. But in the matrix universe truth is what the individual believes... be it Hindu, christian or gnostics or the unaccepted by our world that we are in a simulation.

[eddyrocket]

As we are all aware they are many reflections through out the matrix
of the many different religions. It is my personal opinion that the
driving question drives us not because it reflects religions of the
past but because there is something larger, something new(neo).

I enjoyed your view of the films and applaud the effort. I agree that Neo can be seen as a man who stumbles across the truth and embarks on a journey towards enlightenment. This is one lens by which to view the films. I think we can all identify with his story and his journey. I would hesitate, though, in regards to stating that he (a human) can become a God. Viewing the films from this lens (that he is a human on a spiritual journey) I would agree that he comes to become awakened and enlightened.

But let me propose another lens by which to view the films. I agree that Neo is not reflecting past religions but rather something new. I see him bringing something new like Christ ushered in something new. I also see him helping others distinguish between the myth(s) and the truth (reality).

Some people (the pharisees) had a hard time accepting Christ because his presentation and message was so different than what they expected it to be. They were caught up in their preconcieved notions of what the Messiah was going to be that they missed the real deal.

There is a scene in the Matrix Revolutions were Niobe begins to believe in Neo that captures a key point that I believe the film is trying to make. It is below.

Morpheus:
"But you've never believed in the one."

Niobe:
"I still don't."

Morpheus:
"Then why are you doing this?"

Niobe:
"I believe in him."

I believe it is definitely important to distinguish between the myth and the real deal (reality). Niobe realizes this and does not believe in the myth but comes to believe in what she can see is true. She sees that Neo is worthy of her trust based on what she has come to know about him. Morpheus on the other hand believed in the myth and then came to believe in Neo.

I believe the same should be true for us. We should follow Niobe's example. When Jesus came his own people rejected him because they focused too much on the myth and who they thought he should be. It was the people who were not restrained by the religious traditions and the idea of the Messiah who were able to see him and believe in him. We are told that the pharisees were blinded by their ideas and missed out and did not accept the real deal. (John 5:36-40)

We should not believe blindly in things. That is why God sent us his Son to experience the real deal. Just like Niobe was able to come to the conclusion that Neo is worthy of believing in so can we now (if we seek to) put our trust in Jesus.

Morpheus comes to see the real deal because he allows his idea of Neo to be shattered. Before we come towards the Bible and God we should let go of our preconceived conceptions of God and just get to know Him. John 17:3 states, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent" - John 17:3 (NIV).

It is true that the Matrix displays (reflects) many different religious beliefs. I think this is totally appropriate because we can find truth in each religion. What I mean by this is that we can find self-evident truths in all the religions (that are in agreement). We can also find contradictions and untruth. Neo can see the truth and use it to better himself because he can see reality as it is. He is unplugged.

The self-evident truths found in different religions align with the truth with a capital "T". When it comes to explaining God and the path to God these religions do not align. Instead they contradict each other.

The Matrix films remind us that every religion has truths that we can grab a hold of but it also reminds us that not all paths lead to the same place. For instance, when Neo goes to see the Architect there is only one door that takes him there. It is clear that the other doors would not take him to where he needed to go. If he chooses the wrong door he fails his mission and Zion would be destroyed. When he encounters the Architect he is given two choices that would also lead him to fail his mission. Neo finds a third choice and the path to save Zion much like Christ found the way to save humanity from their inevitable destruction due to sin. When Neo finds the right path and way he eventually ends the war and brings freedom to those who want it.

I believe that truth is not relative - there are consequences to our choices. There are absolutes - there are wrong doors and the correct doors and we do well when we find the correct door and walk through it. We have all had moments in our lives when we regretted opening the wrong door. In the Matrix films the world created by the films is one with absolutes. There are consequences for wrong choices. Those who choose to not accept the gift of truth stay plugged into the illusion and miss out experiencing reality.

I can see how one can come to think that the Matrix films may imply that truth is relative but if we look deeper I think we can find signs that show that the Matrix films display absolute truths in their world; Truths that lead to healthy choices or destructive consequences.

[vieome]

I think you forget cyphers choice. He had the reality and then hated it.

As for Neo bein a God it breaks ddown like this. Everything is the matrix universe is created by the source and remains connected to the source so that Neo is a part of the source. The source is a reflection of the Before matrix God.

Now with the assumption that their is a truth it can only be found to be once personal lens just like yours may be telling you that you know some truth.
For me the matrix tells me that we dont know anything, that our world could be just a matrix or maybe the hindu version of things or the chriistians maybe right or the scentoligist so that the matrix does not present the ultimate truth but one possibility of what the truth might be and by doing that it invites every man women and child to understand that because of our connection what what ever is higher then us we live in a world where there are endless possiblilitys for us to create what ever world we choose. But because man fights fight we have the grotesque world we currently live in.

So in closing the matrix tells me that there is no truth but endless possiblilities and the choice is ours for the taking, the state of the matrix is designed by our choices.

[max314]

Okay, here's a new one. We all know that the Matrix borrows from many different religious traditions and theological/philosophical schools of thought. But what religion/philosophy do the Matrix films align with the closest?

Is it Buddhism? Hinduism? Integralism? Christianity? General Semantics? Etc.?

I'll give my answer in awhile, but I thought to get the ball rolling I'd see what other people think.

The interesting thing is that the term "religion" seems to errect borders of distinction between realms of thought.

For me, what The Matrix seems to be attempting to do is to dissolve those borders and tries to show how the Truth has, does and will always reiterate itself in various incarnations. It references many different paths to that Truth, of course. But the Truth itself seems to remain unchanged.

As such, I don't think that The Matrix is necessarily 'closer' to any one religion...

...not least because we first need to have a discussion on precisely what constitutes a religion.

[eddyrocket]

I think you forget cyphers choice. He had the reality and then hated it.

I did not forget his choice. Cypher's choice proves my point that there is a reality that he discovered. He even acknowledges this reality. He says ignorance is bliss. And because he chose the path of ignorance he suffered some negative consequences (living a lie, death, failure of his plan). Cypher did not see the full value of living in reality because he was too attached to the old world, the matrix. This happens to many people as well. They get caught up and attached (or addicted) with certain ways of seeing things that they cannot look past their interpretation of things. But in the matrix films there is a clear real world (reality) and dreamworld (illusion). This was my point with the pharisees not being able to see Christ for who he really was and Morpheus not seeing Neo for who he really was. It was Niobe, who did not attach herself to a preconceived view of Neo that is able to see the truth. If needed I can expand on this.

How good it would be if people could allow the illusions or myths in their life to shatter to pieces before them as Morpheus did so that they can see the full reality.

As for Neo bein a God it breaks ddown like this. Everything is the matrix universe is created by the source and remains connected to the source so that Neo is a part of the source. The source is a reflection of the Before matrix God.

Thanks for posting this because I think it is good that we can find clarity. I don't disagree that Neo can be viewed as a God or God figure in the films. If I led you to believe this I am glad that this can be cleared up. That is not what I meant at all. I am not comfortable with Neo being portrayed as a mere human who becomes a God (like in mormon theology). I have no problem seeing Neo as a God figure. Matter fact I think I linked him to Christ in my post! Christ is considered part of the Godhead in Christianity. I most definitely have no problem seeing Neo representing Christ in the films. In the Bible it states in John 1:1-3: "In the beginning was the Word (logos) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made."

This seems to fit with the matrix films. Jesus was connected to the Source (God) before the world was created similar to how Neo was connected to the source all along. In the Bible it implies that Jesus not only was connected to the source (God) before the world was created, but also that he was God and that he created the world.

Now with the assumption that their is a truth it can only be found to be once personal lens just like yours may be telling you that you know some truth."

An assumption is a guess or presumption based on an evaluation (my opinion). An observation is a fact (something I see, hear, notice, evidence). If we just take a moment to think about life and our world we can begin to list things that are based on facts or absolutes. Like when Neo took the red pill. He entered into reality soon after. Had he taken the blue pill he would have stayed in the dream world. Two choices, two different situations. If someone jumps off a tall building without any parachute or help he will be injured even if he believes in his mind he can fly. His reality is that he can fly. Yes, he can create his own world and identity but it is based on an illusion. He may believe that he is superman but this does not take away the fact that he will be hurt or die as a result of jumping off the building. Based on these observations I conclude that there is truth with a capital "T". I can give so many examples.

The relativist belief is that there is no objective absolute truth. What this does is it elevates opinions and feelings to an equal plain with truth (many times with the objective to not offend anyone). It is true that all viewpoints should be on the same playing field and equal, but they should not be converted to truth just because someone thinks it so.

"Truth" under this premise can become what one wants it to be even if it goes against logic and reason. Hence the statement, "Something can be true for you, but not true for me" comes to play. The danger is that we can blur reality and lose many of the principles that have helped our society thrive through the ages.

For me the matrix tells me that we dont know anything, that our world could be just a matrix or maybe the hindu version of things or the chriistians maybe right or the scentoligist so that the matrix does not present the ultimate truth but one possibility of what the truth might be...

Sounds like you are open to one of these being right. I think that is a positive direction to be headed in.

...and by doing that it invites every man women and child to understand that because of our connection what what ever is higher then us we live in a world where there are endless possiblilitys for us to create what ever world we choose. But because man fights fight we have the grotesque world we currently live in..

I agree there are endless ways to looking at things (some healthy, some unhealthy). I also agree that we can create whatever world we choose in our mind but it doesn't mean that that world is the correct one or aligned with reality. Just like in the films, I believe there is a dream world (illusion-things that are not true) and a reality that we can discover that frees us from the illusion or matrix.

Here is a quote by C.S. Lewis about people who choose to create a world that is based on ignorance. He states, "We are half-hearted creatures fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an arrogant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased."

So in closing the matrix tells me that there is no truth but endless possiblilities and the choice is ours for the taking, the state of the matrix is designed by our choices.

You say that the state of the matrix is designed by our choices. I agree that our choices can create illusions and dream worlds that keep us trapped in a matrix. I hope that we can get unplugged from the matrix and that our choices can align us to the truth (reality) which leads to endless new doors that bring peace and enrich our lives like never before. I believe our purpose is to find them.

Thanks for your comments. They made me think through things and I enjoy putting my mind to work. I hope people in the forum enjoy the dialogue.

Peace

[psikeyhackr]

"So the question is, "What is the truth?" Why care which religion is the closest to it? Trash everything but the whole truth. Trash whatever is in The Matrix that ain't The Truth. The problem is figuring out what it is."

psik

Maybe we can explore this some more. The ideal is for more people to discover The Truth. How can we find it and help more people attain The Truth? Any ideas?

What is truth. Truth is a perspective in my opinion, given solidness when numbers of people believe the same thing. But in the matrix universe truth is what the individual believes... be it Hindu, christian or gnostics or the unaccepted by our world that we are in a simulation.

This IS a problem.

But I think to begin one has to have a significant amount of intellectual self confidence. There is a lot of bullsh!t flying around and you really have no one to depend on to sort it out but yourself. Personally, I don't regard the Truth as democratic. The majority are full of crap most of the time. I suppose at present a kind of gnostic-buddhism is the best descriton of my perspective but I just say heretic since since I don't like confining my thoughts with words.

I found The Matrix especially interesting because I had been reading about the occult long before the movie came out. So although the words reincarnation and avatar are not used in the movie those concepts are obviously there and presented when Morpheus explains to Neo what The One is. But things get really interesting when The Architect explains things that Morpheus doesn't know. It seems The Oracle never told Morpheus about the Architect or previous Ones. She had to know. Was she manipulating Morpheus by keeping him in the dark? His job was to find the next One. Could the Oracle have known that Neo would not be just another One?

Does this business of previous versions of Zion each with its own One (Anomaly) sound like astrological Ages, each with its own Avatar? If you check out The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ it talks about Enoch and Melchizedek being previous avatars for Ages preceding JC. The Epistle to the Hebrews says some interesting things about Melchizedek.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/aquarian_gospel.htm

Of course your walk of the path means you have to decide if I am just another dummy pointing you at bullsh!t.

psik

[CaptPostMod]

Of course your walk of the path means you have to decide if I am just another dummy pointing you at bullsh!t.

I'll vouch for you psikey ... but then I may well be a dummy too