The Matrix Fans 2007 forums

[iLuvU2]

I thought I should clarify at this point that the Source--the place where the Path of the One ends--does not mean the death of the One. It can't possibly be, because the very next thing that the One is supposed to do is select 23 individuals to rebuild and repopulate Zion. He can't perform that step if he's dead. Instead, what takes place is that all of the "wrong" choices made by everyone who ever subconsciously rejected the Matrix since the previous reload (and these choices are in the form of code that the One carries), are disseminated, or dumped into the Source to be deleted.

All the previous One's however, by following the prescribed Path of the One, temporarily disseminated the code they carried, which led to the Matrix being reloaded and the Path of the One being reinserted--at which point they then selected 23 individuals to rebuild and repopulate Zion. The Path of the One continued until the next One appeared to complete the Path of the One.

I'm pretty sure that the process ends with the One's (and every other Zionite's) death. And if I follow the flow of Reloaded well enough, this time around wasn't going to be any different. But what you say about what the Path of the One was supposed to accomplish is related to the "symbolic deficiency of the world" of the Matrix and Zion, so it goes back to the questions Dionysus posted.

Here's how the Architect puts it:

The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals--16 female, 7 male--to rebuild Zion.

To be fair, the Architect doesn't even mention the death of the One. All we can technically say is that the One does not die IMMEDIATELY after temporarily disseminating the code he carries. He must stay alive long enough after that to select 23 individuals from the Matrix to rebuild Zion. Actually, we had an interesting discussion on the MeX forum about what possibly happens to the One after he completes his assigned tasks for the Architect. Does the Architect let him live out the rest of his life and die of natural causes? Does he let him live long enough to demonstrate his powers to the 23 individuals--thus confirming the reality of the One to the first generation, and to whom the Oracle will later show up and "prophesy" that the One will return? Does the selection process of the 23 individuals happen from a distance, like in the Architect's chamber (Neo points to 23 random people on a computer screen) and then the Architect kills him without the 23 individuals even seeing the One?

I lean toward the idea that the Architect lets the One live long enough to demonstrate to that first generation that there is in fact a One with awesome powers. At some point after that, the Architect engineers the One's death--either through an "accident" or perhaps by trapping him in some sort of Mobil Ave-ish construct in which Neo's powers are negated and then easily killing him. Shortly after that the Oracle shows up and "prophesies" his return. Here's how Morpheus describes how it happens:

When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth. As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free. After he died the Oracle prophesied his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix and the war, bring freedom to our people.

Morpheus thinks he is describing the first One, but in reality he's describing the fifth One. The fifth One followed through with his assigned tasks--went to the Source, temporarily disseminated the code he carried, selected 23 individuals from the Matrix to rebuild Zion, and then freed them. He then lied to them and told them that he freed himself, then demonstrated his power to them. I'm not sure about the part about "remaking the Matrix as he saw fit", though. I don't think even Neo could do that, or at least I don't remember him doing anything like that. Although maybe that part of the One's power that Neo WOULD have had went to Smith instead, which would explain how Smith remade the Matrix as he saw fit at the end of M3. Anyway, in regard to the fifth One, he apparently continued the charade and pretended to be a messianic hero, thus setting up Zion to look up to the One. Then when he dies and the Oracle prophesies his return, Zion is prepared to treat the next One like a messiah, which is the entire reason the Architect allows them to exist. What I'd like to know, however, is how it went down with the FIRST One.

The reason I don't think that the Architect would allow the One to live out his life is because he knows about the reality of what's going on. The longer he stays alive, the higher the chance that he'll disclose the reality of the cycles. The One is a control measure for the systemic anomaly, and Zion is a control measure for the One. If the One told Zion the truth, the whole system of control measures and the Path of the One would collapse. It just makes more sense that the Architect would only keep the One alive as long as he's necessary.

On a side note, Zion believes that the Oracle is human. Therefore, when she makes her prophecy after the One dies, she most likely appears as a little girl. Her shell would then be programmed to appear to age as time went on in order to continue to deceive Zion.

[iLuvU2]

Actually, we had an interesting discussion on the MeX forum about what possibly happens to the One after he completes his assigned tasks for the Architect. Does the Architect let him live out the rest of his life and die of natural causes? Does he let him live long enough to demonstrate his powers to the 23 individuals--thus confirming the reality of the One to the first generation, and to whom the Oracle will later show up and "prophesy" that the One will return?

The fifth One followed through with his assigned tasks--went to the Source, temporarily disseminated the code he carried, selected 23 individuals from the Matrix to rebuild Zion, and then freed them. He then lied to them and told them that he freed himself, then demonstrated his power to them.

So...the One is a hero and a liar?
Edit: I ask because given your scenario, the One not only has to submit to the process but also become part of it by fooling everyone else about it.

The longer he stays alive, the higher the chance that he'll disclose the reality of the cycles.

This is assuming the Architect bothers telling him about the cycle.

Consider this:

If the One told Zion the truth, the whole system of control measures and the Path of the One would collapse.

You're saying that the more a person knows about what is going on, the less he/she is likely to want to go along with it. Okay, so the Architect tells Thomas about his history and the first thing Thomas does is what - "Denial is...", then he chooses the other door, and the first thing he tells Morpheus, "The 'One' wasn't meant to end anything...It was all another system of control." So that argues against the One becoming a liar. In fact it would seem that the more ignorant everyone is, the better. Remember what the Matrix itself is there for.

[Feral_Boy]

Actually, we had an interesting discussion on the MeX forum about what possibly happens to the One after he completes his assigned tasks for the Architect. Does the Architect let him live out the rest of his life and die of natural causes? Does he let him live long enough to demonstrate his powers to the 23 individuals--thus confirming the reality of the One to the first generation, and to whom the Oracle will later show up and "prophesy" that the One will return?

The fifth One followed through with his assigned tasks--went to the Source, temporarily disseminated the code he carried, selected 23 individuals from the Matrix to rebuild Zion, and then freed them. He then lied to them and told them that he freed himself, then demonstrated his power to them.

So...the One is a hero and a liar?
Edit: I ask because given your scenario, the One not only has to submit to the process but also become part of it by fooling everyone else about it.

Exactly, that pretty much sums it up.

The longer he stays alive, the higher the chance that he'll disclose the reality of the cycles.

This is assuming the Architect bothers telling him about the cycle.

He told Neo, so I don't see any reason to believe that he didn't tell the previous Ones about them. But even if he didn't tell them, I'm sure that they could figure it out on their own. Picture the scenario by pretending you're one of the previous Ones. You are told by the Oracle that you're the One and that you must return to the Source where the Path of the One ends. You head there, thinking it's going to save everybody. You end up in the Architect's chamber for a brief chat. Suppose he tells you nothing about the cycles or any of the other things he explained to Neo. Suppose all he does is ask that you go through the door on your right and temporarily disseminate the code you carry. You do so, then he asks you to select 23 individuals from the Matrix to rebuild Zion. You're thinking, "rebuild" Zion? You ask what he means, and he informs you that they destroyed it. I'm sure you could figure out that you just got played.

Consider this:

If the One told Zion the truth, the whole system of control measures and the Path of the One would collapse.

You're saying that the more a person knows about what is going on, the less he/she is likely to want to go along with it. Okay, so the Architect tells Thomas about his history and the first thing Thomas does is what - "Denial is...", then he chooses the other door, and the first thing he tells Morpheus, "The 'One' wasn't meant to end anything...It was all another system of control." So that argues against the One becoming a liar. In fact it would seem that the more ignorant everyone is, the better. Remember what the Matrix itself is there for.

You have to keep in mind what separates Neo from the previous Ones--his love for Trinity. His love for one person outweighs his messianic devotion to the faceless masses. None of the previous Ones had that sort of attachment to a single person. When Neo is in the Architect's chamber, he has thus far followed the script of the Path of the One in a pretty much identical fashion to the previous Ones. But when Neo chooses the left door instead of the right door, he was the first One to do so. So everything you see from that point on has never happened before. Neo's discussion with Morpheus ("the One was never meant to end anything") was the kind of thing that was never revealed to Zion before. Most likely with the previous Ones, they were held captive and not allowed to return to the Zionites until Zion was done being destroyed. Then after it was gone, the One would select 23 individuals to rebuild it. That's just a theory obviously, but even if the One did return to Zion it obviously didn't do any good since we know that Zion was destroyed every time.

But in regard to what I said about the control measures falling apart, I'm mostly referring to the whole system being sabotaged before it has time to really take root and become "scripture" for the Zionites. If the One was going to tell the 23 individuals the truth, he'd probably say something like, "By the way, in about a hundred years or so, watch out for another One like me showing up. He will not free you, but is simply there to make sure the Matrix continues to exist. At that time, everything you're about to rebuild will be destroyed so that 23 more people just like you can be selected and start the whole process all over again. If I were you, I'd spend the next hundred years trying to figure out how to stop the Machines instead of playing into their hands. Instead of the next One being your messiah, treat him like the Antichrist. And when someone comes along and prophesies about my return, don't trust her--she's one of them." If the One did that, the "prophecy" would never take root in the consciousness of Zion and events would turn out completely different. The fact that they DIDN'T turn out differently proves that the previous Ones always lied about what's really going on--or at the very least kept the truth from the first people they freed.

[iLuvU2]

The fact that they DIDN'T turn out differently proves that the previous Ones always lied about what's really going on--or at the very least kept the truth from the first people they freed.

Or another way to look at it is that the truth was kept from them as well. And that part of what is different this time is not just Trinity but that Thomas is told about the past, this time.

Many people like to say it is Trinity that made a difference but they often overlook the fact that without the Arch showing him what's at stake as far as she's concerned...uh, I don't know.

[Feral_Boy]

The fact that they DIDN'T turn out differently proves that the previous Ones always lied about what's really going on--or at the very least kept the truth from the first people they freed.

Or another way to look at it is that the truth was kept from them as well. And that part of what is different this time is not just Trinity but that Thomas is told about the past, this time.

Many people like to say it is Trinity that made a difference but they often overlook the fact that without the Arch showing him what's at stake as far as she's concerned...uh, I don't know.

Yeah, I agree that there's been debate on that. In previous discussions on MeX, we debated whether or not the Architect showed Neo about Trinity's death as a way of saying, "See, it's pointless to try to save her, so why don't you just go along with our plan and choose the right door?" or whether he was secretly hoping that Neo would choose the left door. The latter theory was first mentioned (so far as I know) by Brian Takle on http://wylfing.net/essays/matrix_reloaded.html#architect, although he does say that what he means by that is in a Garden of Eden sort of way where the Deity provides a way for the man to exit the garden since He secretly WANTS man to exit it--otherwise why provide it in the first place? While I can see his point as far as the Bible is concerned, I don't think that sort of mindset really applies to the Architect. He likes his ducks to be in a row, and doesn't like anything to be out of line. He goes out of his way to get rid of as many anomalies as he can.

But back to your point about the truth being kept from the previous Ones. As I said earlier, even if that were the case, it doesn't make sense to me how they wouldn't be able to figure out what happened--unless they were all monumentally stupid. They do everything the Oracle tells them to, and yet it results in Zion being destroyed? What else are they going to think? At the least, they'd think that the Oracle lied to them, don't you think? I guess maybe I just need to have you explain exactly how you see it happening, with the specific order of events. I only came to my current opinion after I thought out the details of what exactly must have happened with previous Ones, step by step, and considered the psychological and emotional effect each event must have had on them. The only conclusion I could come to is that they justified their lying to the 23 individuals by knowing that even though a quarter of a million people would die every cycle, it would save the billions still connected to the Matrix. They wouldn't be happy about it, but they'd go along with it for the greater good.

[iLuvU2]

I'll tell ya. The way I would respond here is different from the way I would respond in the Ultimate Matrix Guide thread.

...it doesn't make sense to me how they wouldn't be able to figure out what happened--unless they were all monumentally stupid.

Picture yourself traveling down to a dead end. If there is no sign telling you this, you won't figure it out until you see the end. This doesn't make you stupid. When they reach the Source and where they are going, it seems right enough until it is too late to do anything different. You notice many posters still disagree with the Neo's choice of the left door. Why? Because it isn't (or doesn't seem like) the logical (smart, etc.) thing to do.

So let's say they as you say, figured it out. Assuming that they actually get to say anything to the people they select, you're right. But it is not said that he would doing anything beyond select them and the selection process itself, isn't elaborated upon. The end.

[tozy]

But back to your point about the truth being kept from the previous Ones. As I said earlier, even if that were the case, it doesn't make sense to me how they wouldn't be able to figure out what happened--unless they were all monumentally stupid. They do everything the Oracle tells them to, and yet it results in Zion being destroyed? What else are they going to think? At the least, they'd think that the Oracle lied to them, don't you think? I guess maybe I just need to have you explain exactly how you see it happening, with the specific order of events. I only came to my current opinion after I thought out the details of what exactly must have happened with previous Ones, step by step, and considered the psychological and emotional effect each event must have had on them. The only conclusion I could come to is that they justified their lying to the 23 individuals by knowing that even though a quarter of a million people would die every cycle, it would save the billions still connected to the Matrix. They wouldn't be happy about it, but they'd go along with it for the greater good.

Or they understood the cycles for what they were: evolution.
Maybe - deep down - they understood that eventually a One would not end where they did. And that it was essential that he wasn't told, but did find out himself... -> the choice had to be truly his.

[iLuvU2]

Maybe - deep down - they understood that eventually a One would not end where they did.

Or hoped. Interesting point anyway.

Another thing I will add is that someone I won't name showed a while ago on the MeX boards that a person can come up with great ideas that seem to answer some of the questions he and his buddies might have about the films. But when the person doesn't take the time to see if it really fits the plot and context of the films they end up actually messing up the plot.

For example I could ask why the machines need anyone to have "superpowers" and you might say that it is a trick so that people in Zion will believe in him, put their hope in him, and help him reach the source. Then I would ask, why do they need someone at the Source and you might say so he can pick the next people to rebuild Zion after they destroy it. And I could ask why the machines need Zion rebuilt and you would probably say that the machines need Zion to exist, and if I ask why is that, you might say so they can use its destruction to force the next one to go along with this.

What you may start to see is that you might be painting a circular scenario where you're saying the machines need the One because of Zion, which they need because of the One, to which someone else could have a valid point in asserting that, if this is true, the machines don't need either. Then according to what I know about your theory and previous discussions on it, you would say that they need Zion because of the anomaly's threat to the system and they need to end a cycle with a 0 -> No "One" and no Zion.

Now, here I can come in and say that according to the above model, what makes the model function also makes the model make no sense. Because if the premises, the model is based on, are true (they need Zion because of the anomaly's threat to the system), then they don't really need someone to select anyone to rebuild (the Architect or someone else could do that). And even if they need someone's "code" or something like that, they SURELY don't need to give him attributes (superpowers) that could jeopardize their whole civilization.

The question still remains as to why a "One" is there and what the real purpose of the Matrix is - which brings us back to the questions Dionysus posed about the "HERO IS HIS ORDINARY WORLD."

I'll tell ya. The way I would respond here is different from the way I would respond in the Ultimate Matrix Guide thread.

http://matrixfans2007.informe.com/viewt ... =1137#1137

[tozy]

.....Then according to what I know about your theory and previous discussions on it, you would say that they need Zion because of the anomaly's threat to the system and they need to end a cycle with a 0 -> No "One" and no Zion.

Are you talking to me? If so, you misunderstand my theory...

The question still remains as to why a "One" is there...

He is inevitable...

...and what the real purpose of the Matrix is.

As in "created for a purpose"?...

[iLuvU2]

Are you talking to me?

No. With the exception of the first line, everything in that post is about Feral Boy's theory.

He is inevitable...

Cute, but that's not a "why".

As in "created for a purpose"?

As in fulfilling a purpose.

[tozy]

He is inevitable...

Cute, but that's not a "why".

In my opinion it very much is...

[iLuvU2]

He is inevitable...

Cute, but that's not a "why".

In my opinion it very much is...

"He is inevitable" is a how. A why would be the point of reference in your opinion that makes [it] inevitable.

[Feral_Boy]

ILuvU2, I do hear what you're saying. To an extent, it's like spending an inordinate amount of time trying to explain why the Machines used humans for energy instead of cows. It's missing the point of the movies. There are certain things you simply accept as being what they are without understanding the technical aspects of the whole thing. The details can definitely cause you to lose the point and focus of what the Wachowski Brothers are trying to say. I am very much guilty of falling into that trap a lot when it comes to the Matrix.

I guess I just want this wonderful universe that they've created to make sense to me on a certain technical level. And while I understand that you can "get" the movies without all of these layers of technicality as a foundation, I believe that to a certain extent they really are part of fleshing out the whole thing--just as much as the things they symbolize. In other words, getting back to the example of Mobil Ave, it really does help in understanding the symbolism of what Mobil Ave represents if you understand at least the BASIC premise that Mobil Ave is a sort of virtual reality construct that is between the Matrix and the Machine World. In order to understand part of its symbolism as the River Styx and the Trainman as the Boatman (or Ferryman, or whatever you want to call him), you need to understand Mobil Ave's "between-ness" nature. Knowing that the Trainman built Mobil Ave and programmed it so that he was its "god" also helps to further the symbolism.

That being said, I agree that getting into the technical aspects can be taken too far. So in that respect, I often need to be brought back on point. But I won't ever stop trying to make sense of the whole thing on a technical level--it's just part of my INTJ personality type. I like to understand large systems and I like to see how the whole thing "works" from a big-picture vantage point.

As for Neo, I think it's very important to understand the nature of the Path of the One/prime program and how it functions. Knowing about it helps to explain the connection to the symbolism of Christ carrying the sins to the cross and eliminating them. It also helps explain how even though Neo at first tries to ignore his destiny to complete the Path of the One (by not going through the "correct" door when he visits the Architect), he's still going to have to choose to eventually end up at the place where the Path of the One ends. As Larry Wachowski states on the "Path of Neo" video game:

"You see at this point in the story Neo stands on the verge of Satori, ready to resolve the paradox of Choice and Choicelessness, of Free Will versus Fate. But that can only be achieved through an act of surrender, which occurs after he has abandoned the perspectival nature of Truth, accepting the Totality of Present Consciousness which ultimately allows an evolutionary transition, transcending the Cartesian dilemma through the emergence of the de-limited spirit, which then provides the world with the choice of a third path, the path of Neo, the path of the peace."

So even though Neo still ends up at the Source like he would have by choosing the "correct" door to begin with, he does so in a manner unlike the previous Ones, thereby creating peace. Knowing the technicalities behind the Path of the One--in my opinion--helps one to appreciate more what Neo accomplishes. How MUCH more it causes you to appreciate it is obviously debateable. But I would say it's a nice addition, rather than a distraction.

[iLuvU2]

I still think it's commendable that you do pay attention to the details though.

LOL. I do remember the 'cows threads. And I agree with you. The setting is very important.

Btw. I took that test you have in your signature and it said MENTOR for me.

[th3_p4th]