The Matrix Fans 2007 forums

[vieome]

Over the years we have all come into contact with loads and loads of information on the matrix. Some of that information gets lots in post, lost in the web.
So I was thinking how about we add as much infor in one thread on all the ideas we have come across then that thread can be saved bu individuals who take the matrix journey. Also it could be made into a pdf and stored on the web.

[Feral_Boy]

That's actually a pretty cool idea. We can see how far down the rabbit hole we can go as a corporate body.

[vieome]

Yes there has been a lot of contributions by Philosphers and the like, but I feel it is time the fans did their bit and produced something comprehensive.

Here is a quick list of some of the topics we can add.

1. The religious aspects, -- this can be broken down to show how each religion has its reflection in the matrix.
2. Simulation
3. Hiden things in the matrix.
4. Small facts like number plates and stuff
5. choice in the matrix.


And everything we have covered in discusion so far.

For my contribution what I will put forward is a theisis about the matrix which ignores all the minor details fo the rabbit hole and instead looks at the matrix and Neos story as a whole,.

I think we can also add fan fics in and any threads that were good. Although I think we need to filter out a thread in to an essay

[Feral_Boy]

For my part, the best stuff that I wrote was from the other forum, and I don't have the time to go and copy and paste all that stuff here. I wish I did, but at the moment it's not really an option. Some of the things I focused on primarily that I felt contributed the most were the Architect's speech, the technical definition of the anomaly (both systemic and integral) and the definition of the "prime program" (which, as it turns out, is the Architect's way of describing the Path of the One).

[apocryphe]

Maybe we could add a Factual List, by that I mean a list of established facts (with their source) that can help us to better understand the Matrix.

For example, the place where Neo flew at the end of M1, is the same place where he saves Trinity in M2 and fights Smith in M3, many facts like these are nort known by many fans.

[dionysus]

I've only recently joined this fan site, although I had posted some forum postings earlier on the matrix-explained site before that forum became unusable and destroyed by huge amounts of spam. It's cool to see that some of the original forum posters have come back to this new site.

I really like the idea of creating some sort of knowledge database of the matrix films, particularly because there still seems to be a lot of confusion on the films and in the way the W's meant their movie to be interpreted.

I'd really like to add some contributions to the matrix discussion once it gets underway. I'm not sure whether this privilege is only reserved for those who have posted many forum postings in the past and have proven their level of knowledge of the films. Although I have not had many postings in the past, I feel that I can give a meaningful contribution to the knowledge database, particularly because I'm currently working on my own website in which the movies are analysed and interpreted from a large range of perspectives.

My position is that particular scenes in the movie cannot be interpreted correctly without the appropriate framework for reference. Sure, we create a factual sheet, but 'fact' as well as 'truth' are relative concepts. In order to be able to speak about 'absolute fact' or 'objective truth', we would need to define the framework in which particular scenes are interpreted and analysed. Sound confusing? Let me explain with an example.

One of the most confusing scenes for me was the whole Mobil Ave scene. In the beginning, I just couldn't understand why the directors would have Neo end up in an abandoned train station called Mobil Ave. I also couldn't understand what this place symbolized in terms of of Neo's Journey. Sure, it was easy enough to discover the anagram for Limbo, but, for me, it wasn't enough. I also had the feeling that, although I could come to see this place symbolising some form of 'purgatory', I felt there was still a lot of symbolism that I was still missing. Having delved into literature, mythologym, and religion, I have come to see Mobil Ave as representing and symbolising so much more.

From a perspective of Christianity, Movil Ave could indeed be seen as 'a place of purgatory located on the edge of hell' (= the very definition of Limbo). This, in fact, is quite a nice interpretation because it ties into Trinity's descent into club hel (which, in turn, could quite easily be interpreted as symbolising Hell as known and described in christianity). Mobil Ave, in this sense, would indeed seem to border on the 'edge of Hell'.

Seen from the perspective of the Hero's Journey (Joseph Campbell), Mobil Ave can be thought of as representing Neo's 'Refusal of the Return'. This also ties in neatly with the 'place of purgatory' interpretation from Christianity.

Seen from the perspective of the philosophy of Nietzsche, and in particular, his thesis on the Ubermensch, Mobil Ave becomes something quite different altogether. If we see Neo's Journey as his becoming Ubermensch, we can come to see Mobil Ave as representing his halfway point. In this case, Mobil Ave can be interpreted as symbolising Neo's halfway point, or his being caught "between beast and Ubermensch".

Seen from the perspective of Plato's Allegory of the Cave, Mobil Ave can be interpreted as symbolising 'the divided line' between the visible world (= the matrix) and the intelligible world (= machine city).

And yet, if we view Mobil Ave from a gnostic perspective, it also represents a place of purgatory, but one where "the world spirit in exile must go through the inferno of matter and the purgatory of ethics to arrive at the spiritual paradise" (= the explanation of Limbo in Gnosticism). If we see Neo as the world-spirit (= neo as the one), and Mobil Ave as the "purgatory of ethics", we can even come to see Bane as representing the "Inferno of Matter" and machine city as representing the "spiritual paradise".

From a Buddhist perspective, Mobil Ave can be viewed as representing one of the six realms on the wheel of Samsara. If we can come to see Neo's Journey as his journey through each of the six realms of Samsara, then we can think of Mobil Ave/Club Hel as representing the Hell Realm. In Buddhism, and within the Hell Realm, a distinction is usually made between hot hells and cold hells. In this case the cold hell is represented by Mobil Ave and the hot hell by Club Hel. I believe it is no coincidence that the scenes are intercut between Mobil Ave and Club Hel, since they both represent one and the same realm of Samsara.

From a Hindu perspective, Mobil Ave can also be viewed as representing one of the seven Chakra's. If one can see Neo's journey as his journey through each of the seven chakra's, then Mobil Ave can be thought of as the chakra of vishuddha. In fact, the description of this chakra fits the setting of Mobil Ave very well indeed.

I could go on and on, but my point is that it becomes very difficult to talk about the 'true interpretation' or the 'only explanation' without an appropriate framework for analysis/interpretation.

So, the only answer to the question "what is Mobil Ave?" can really be "well, it depends on what perspective you're looking from".

I believe such an approach is not only more efficient (because it saves a lot of nitpicking), I believe it is also appropriate given the large range and diversity of references that we see in the films. It would be a waste to exclude a large range of interpretations or perspectives in the idle hope of getting an singularly coherent explanation of the films. I believe there is no singularly coherent framework for analysis/interpretation and that is why we should specify the perspective from which we are conducting our analysis.

Any thoughts, anyone?

[Feral_Boy]

For example, the place where Neo flew at the end of M1, is the same place where he saves Trinity in M2 and fights Smith in M3, many facts like these are nort known by many fans.

Yeah, I'm one of those unaware fans. Where'd you come by that info, apocryphe? And by the way, welcome to the forum! I remember seeing your avatar on old postings from MeX, but I don't believe that you and I were ever on the forum at the same time...until now. MWA-HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[iLuvU2]

I've only recently joined this fan site, although I had posted some forum postings earlier on the matrix-explained site before that forum became unusable and destroyed by huge amounts of spam. It's cool to see that some of the original forum posters have come back to this new site.

I really like the idea of creating some sort of knowledge database of the matrix films, particularly because there still seems to be a lot of confusion on the films and in the way the W's meant their movie to be interpreted.

I'd really like to add some contributions to the matrix discussion once it gets underway. I'm not sure whether this privilege is only reserved for those who have posted many forum postings in the past and have proven their level of knowledge of the films. Although I have not had many postings in the past, I feel that I can give a meaningful contribution to the knowledge database, particularly because I'm currently working on my own website in which the movies are analysed and interpreted from a large range of perspectives.

My position is that particular scenes in the movie cannot be interpreted correctly without the appropriate framework for reference. Sure, we create a factual sheet, but 'fact' as well as 'truth' are relative concepts. In order to be able to speak about 'absolute fact' or 'objective truth', we would need to define the framework in which particular scenes are interpreted and analysed. Sound confusing? Let me explain with an example.

One of the most confusing scenes for me was the whole Mobil Ave scene. In the beginning, I just couldn't understand why the directors would have Neo end up in an abandoned train station called Mobil Ave. I also couldn't understand what this place symbolized in terms of of Neo's Journey. Sure, it was easy enough to discover the anagram for Limbo, but, for me, it wasn't enough. I also had the feeling that, although I could come to see this place symbolising some form of 'purgatory', I felt there was still a lot of symbolism that I was still missing. Having delved into literature, mythologym, and religion, I have come to see Mobil Ave as representing and symbolising so much more.

From a perspective of Christianity, Movil Ave could indeed be seen as 'a place of purgatory located on the edge of hell' (= the very definition of Limbo). This, in fact, is quite a nice interpretation because it ties into Trinity's descent into club hel (which, in turn, could quite easily be interpreted as symbolising Hell as known and described in christianity). Mobil Ave, in this sense, would indeed seem to border on the 'edge of Hell'.

Seen from the perspective of the Hero's Journey (Joseph Campbell), Mobil Ave can be thought of as representing Neo's 'Refusal of the Return'. This also ties in neatly with the 'place of purgatory' interpretation from Christianity.

Seen from the perspective of the philosophy of Nietzsche, and in particular, his thesis on the Ubermensch, Mobil Ave becomes something quite different altogether. If we see Neo's Journey as his becoming Ubermensch, we can come to see Mobil Ave as representing his halfway point. In this case, Mobil Ave can be interpreted as symbolising Neo's halfway point, or his being caught "between beast and Ubermensch".

Seen from the perspective of Plato's Allegory of the Cave, Mobil Ave can be interpreted as symbolising 'the divided line' between the visible world (= the matrix) and the intelligible world (= machine city).

And yet, if we view Mobil Ave from a gnostic perspective, it also represents a place of purgatory, but one where "the world spirit in exile must go through the inferno of matter and the purgatory of ethics to arrive at the spiritual paradise" (= the explanation of Limbo in Gnosticism). If we see Neo as the world-spirit (= neo as the one), and Mobil Ave as the "purgatory of ethics", we can even come to see Bane as representing the "Inferno of Matter" and machine city as representing the "spiritual paradise".

From a Buddhist perspective, Mobil Ave can be viewed as representing one of the six realms on the wheel of Samsara. If we can come to see Neo's Journey as his journey through each of the six realms of Samsara, then we can think of Mobil Ave/Club Hel as representing the Hell Realm. In Buddhism, and within the Hell Realm, a distinction is usually made between hot hells and cold hells. In this case the cold hell is represented by Mobil Ave and the hot hell by Club Hel. I believe it is no coincidence that the scenes are intercut between Mobil Ave and Club Hel, since they both represent one and the same realm of Samsara.

From a Hindu perspective, Mobil Ave can also be viewed as representing one of the seven Chakra's. If one can see Neo's journey as his journey through each of the seven chakra's, then Mobil Ave can be thought of as the chakra of vishuddha. In fact, the description of this chakra fits the setting of Mobil Ave very well indeed.

I could go on and on, but my point is that it becomes very difficult to talk about the 'true interpretation' or the 'only explanation' without an appropriate framework for analysis/interpretation.

So, the only answer to the question "what is Mobil Ave?" can really be "well, it depends on what perspective you're looking from".

I believe such an approach is not only more efficient (because it saves a lot of nitpicking), I believe it is also appropriate given the large range and diversity of references that we see in the films. It would be a waste to exclude a large range of interpretations or perspectives in the idle hope of getting an singularly coherent explanation of the films. I believe there is no singularly coherent framework for analysis/interpretation and that is why we should specify the perspective from which we are conducting our analysis.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Thoughts? Yeah I have a thought.

Whoa!

Agreed. And I would also like there to be some discussion about how the different perspectives, when considered together, help the viewer to understand the complete picture and what that picture may be.

[Feral_Boy]

I concur with iLuvU2--great post dionysus!!

With so many characters, events and places representing multiple things, it's basically impossible to take just one theme and apply it wholesale to the entire trilogy. You can't take ONLY a Christian, Buddhist or even Scientologist (sorry Capt) mindset and map it over every detail and expect to get all the answers. As you pointed out so beautifully, you have to dig deep into each individual aspect and mine as much info as you can. And this is why I like to dissect individual parts to get the whole truth of the matter when it comes to the Matrix. If you start with a pre-assumed "Matrix big picture" and then try to define all the smaller parts by that, then you will miss so much. Better to take parts individually and study the crap out of them, THEN see how they fit into the larger whole.

[iLuvU2]

Who said anything about trying to find answers in the trilogy? The trilogy, if you want to look at it that way, is an answer. As such, you can't dissect it and find out anything.

To borrow the above example, what can one find out by analyzing the crap out of Mobil Ave. if one doesn't know what "limbo" means? Isn't someone gonna have to do some homework somewhere down the line if they plan to get anywhere? True, the "devil is in the details", but analysis paralysis is counterproductive. One is just going to have do what gets the results.

What we are talking about, Feral, is digging deeper into the perspectives covered by the writers. Why? Because of what they are saying about these different perspectives and to what even that leads to.

btw. To CPM's defense, I believe he is just showing you how congruent Scientology is to the other perspectives.

[Feral_Boy]

ILuvU2, thank you for your interesting--albeit unnecessary--reply. I'm not sure which part of your post you felt was informing anyone. Of COURSE knowing the connection between Mobil Ave and limbo is meaningless without a prior knowledge of what limbo is. Did you think anyone didn't already realize that? You can enjoy the Matrix mythology on its own merits as a pure sci-fi adventure, but to understand the subtext, you must understand all kinds of religious, philosophical and historical references. For those who have come from the MeX forum (like myself, Capt and th3_p4th), that's pretty much par for the course.

And as for my comment about Scientology, that was a tongue-in-cheek aside to Capt. He and I know each other from the MeX forum, so the subject of Scientology has already come up and been dealt with to a certain extent. I don't expect you to know that, so I'm not chiding you for your lack of knowledge--merely informing you. But again, thank you for your interesting--and unnecessary--reply.

[iLuvU2]

I'm not sure which part of your post you felt was informing anyone.

I felt that someone would get from it what they feel is noteworthy, I guess, like pretty much anything else they might encounter. But, of course, it is unnecessary to tell you that.

Of COURSE knowing the connection between Mobil Ave and limbo is meaningless without a prior knowledge of what limbo is. Did you think anyone didn't already realize that?

I was hoping that they would, because I was using it (what they already realize) as an example of what they may not yet realize, and that is that there are other parts of the films that it is necessary to do research on the religious or philosophical significance of or else it is meaningless to them or worse - they have an alternate or incomplete meaning than what was intended and think that is sufficient. A case in point would be "The Source."

to understand the subtext, you must understand all kinds of religious, philosophical and historical references.

I know its unnecessary to tell you that to understand the films, you must HAVE UNDERSTOOD all kinds of religious, philosophical, and scientific perspectives. In fact, to understand the significance of just about everything else, you must seek to understand other perspectives, even those that tend to frighten or offend you.

For those who have come from the MeX forum (like myself, Capt and th3_p4th), that's pretty much par for the course.

So...?

He and I know each other from the MeX forum, so the subject of Scientology has already come up and been dealt with to a certain extent. I don't expect you to know that, so I'm not chiding you for your lack of knowledge--merely informing you.

You're assuming I haven't read your interchanges here or in any other forum.

Let me just ask, to what extent? Because I remember CPM posting information about Scientology, but I don't recall seeing much coming from the rest of you about it. So, I would say excuse me for my lack of knowledge, but, of course, it should be unnecessary to tell you that.

[Feral_Boy]

iLuvU2, it would seem that you and I are both in agreement with what dionysus had to say about learning as many frameworks as possible in order to more fully understand the various elements of the Matrix. I agree with it, and it would seem you do as well. So I'd say that pretty much sums it up. That being said, let's move forward with more examples. Dionysus started us off with Mobil Ave, so we can either delve into that deeper, or bring up another element we'd like to discuss.

[iLuvU2]

I would post a wish list but for now, I'll leave it up to to Dionysus. I think he (she?) means that if we intend to make an Ultimate Matrix Guide there are the concerns as to what you consider a fact and that Mobil Ave. is a good example of where multiple viewpoints come into play to form a whole. He (she?) didn't even get into the Trainman who seems to run it and the Greek mythos connected there and the Sati cypher, which is a big discussion in itself.

I can hardly wait to see what Dionysus and CPM come out with next.

[vieome]

Gentleman and Ladies

I think the best approach for the matrix guide is to do it in stages.

1. First we write a list of small facts that can be found in the matrix. Things like licencse
plates. Or as aproc said place neo flies up.

2. We make a list of names and meanings.

3. We deal with the following
A.matrix=religion
b.matrix=Christianity
c.matrix=gnostic
d.matrix=Plato's cave
e.matrix=Buddhism
f.matrix=Hinduism
g.matrix=life
h. matrix=etc
i. matrix=tech
j.matrix=scientology
k. matrix= symbols and signs


The idea is to work together on each of the issues then what we put forward can be complied into a document e-book. Now lets concentrate all toether on one thing at a time. The first being a list of small points